Should You Have an Exit Strategy? Feat. Shirt Show!

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The Shirt Show Boys join us for a fantastic collab episode discussing exit strategy and the latest industry news. How do we feel about the S&S/Alpha Broder changes? Should you have an exit strategy for your shop? We Discuss!

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The PrintHustlers Podcast has published more than 200 episodes with print industry leaders and experts. If you want a candid look inside the minds of the industry’s best, then we’re the podcast for you. Here are a few of our favorite episodes:

Augmented Reality Screen Printing with RockaBlock: Rockland Page, owner of RockaBlock has taken promotional garments to a new level by introducing augmented reality to his shirts.
ScreenPrinting GPT and 3 Practical Uses of AI…WOW: Matt Marcotte joins the team again to introduce an amazing AI tool to help ALL screen printers
Doing Things That Don’t Scale + Selling ALL Their Screen Printing Equipment: Davis Slagle of Bee Graphix has online stores down to a science.

Transcript:

00:00:04:05 – 00:00:29:13

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00:02:36:02 – 00:03:02:06

All right let’s jump on in. What’s up protesters. What’s up shirt showers. Welcome back. We’ve got an incredible episode this week. The Andy Rudman out of Saint Louis and followed by Dylan, Gilligan’s Island straight out, New York, upstate New York, Oregon, Chicago. I’m Bruce from Prince. Oh, wow. What a crew. What a cast. Look, I’m just going to kick this off real quick here.

00:03:02:06 – 00:03:22:13

Andy sent a wild text message two nights ago and said, hey, we got it all, get on a pod. And we got to talk about this topic. And do you want to carry us? Yeah. Great job, by the way. that makes me feel so shy, man. I thought we would kick this off with RSNs. Has merged or acquired Brodeur brothers.

00:03:22:15 – 00:03:52:09

What do you think about that? I think that our prices aren’t going down because now there’s less competition. I think it’s interesting that Alpha Brodeur is a decorator as well. So does that mean and is a decorator? That was my first thought, honestly. are we gonna order Prime Line from us and us? I don’t really order from Alpha Brodeur that much, so, like, I guess it’s cool that those brands are getting consolidated.

00:03:52:11 – 00:04:21:23

but this is like. I mean, it just takes away competition, so I, I don’t really care all that much. The Alpha Brodeur stuff of them printing didn’t really bug me. That much. But, yeah, I think there’s a lot of consolidation happening right now and companies, going through the times. So, I’m not surprised. Well, you just guess what, guys, how much revenue Essence and Alphabet are will do together throughout a number.

00:04:22:00 – 00:04:55:17

Wow. okay, I knew I knew Bruce would have the details on this $1 million. That is an awful guess, Dylan, I don’t know. Boom. Wait. I’m going to go ahead it. I’m going to go. Go to Dylan. You go. 2 billion. Okay. I was going to go 1.5 billion. All right. So combined allegedly 2023 revenue. This puts SNS, revenue around 4 billion a little bit more than 4 billion.

00:04:55:17 – 00:05:18:03

Wow. Yeah. Damn. It’s a lot this year. This year, which, you know, there’s a lot of question marks as far as what sand Mars is, but, I got to imagine it’s comparable. Maybe not, I don’t know. So, wait, is that going to be their combined revenue will be Alpha and us combined will be four. Yeah. So the other thing that I heard that is so much though.

00:05:18:03 – 00:05:39:21

Wait, can we like like yeah like that many blanks are being bought through now. Maybe they do a lot of other stuff up and down. I don’t know obviously what the breakdown on an alphabet or. Right. The prime line stuff. I know Sam Mar does a lot of like, custom kind of things directly. more cutting. So we wholesale to to brands and so on.

00:05:39:21 – 00:06:07:18

But $4 billion. it’s a huge company. Yeah. I think that strategically, it’s a great move for us and has I mean, now they’re going to have more distribution centers than they for one day ship, for example. I don’t know which ones they close because there’s probably some, you know, overlap. But you know, it’s it’s really interesting that I mean, this isn’t the first, acquisition for us.

00:06:07:18 – 00:06:26:20

And as you know, they’ve been doing this for, what is it, ten years, I guess they’ve been in acquiring different companies. And so they were just Chicago, as if you can remember, which is only Chicago a while back. They’re from you long ago. Yeah. You have AI grads. do you know that they just had when I started, it was just SMS in Lockport or Joliet or whatever.

00:06:26:20 – 00:06:48:10

And and then you they bought what ever an Americana. Yeah. Like the east and the west. And so I bet you when I a decade ago estimates might have only been $100 million company. I’m curious to know the growth. That’s wild. Yeah. does anyone know if SARS is privately owned? Like, how is it owned? Like, what’s the ownership structure?

00:06:48:12 – 00:07:14:09

Is it like this is private equity? I think it’s private equity. Now, it doesn’t used to be a yeah, like you said, it started out, different, but, I think it’s private equity is my guess. I think that’s what it said. Company called. Clayton. Like Dubilier and Rice, if I’m pronouncing that correctly. So you’re saying as of March 2021, I mean, I think they bought a portion of it before, and then they bought the majority in 2021.

00:07:14:11 – 00:07:35:21

So you’re you’re saying that the private equity guys don’t give a shit about the screen printers being mad, that Alfred Broder print stuff. I thought they would take their feelings into consideration. Well, it would be interesting because when Asana Spot was a TFC apparel or another regional, they sold off parts of it like the parts that they didn’t want.

00:07:35:23 – 00:07:52:12

there was a brand, if I remember reading that there was some sort of apparel brand that they were making, they didn’t like it and they sold it to some other distributor. I don’t know if they say that. Like, what’s all this equipment here? Do you guys know about the Delta apparel DTG to go stuff that happened?

00:07:52:14 – 00:08:12:04

Yeah, I heard there were several, polarities or something that went for sale after that. I had no idea. Delta. What did he even did that at the time. So that was news to me. Yeah. So like DTG to go is Delta is printful essentially or like print on demand for like a, a bunch of huge brands. And I think that shuddered.

00:08:12:06 – 00:08:33:21

But then I also heard rumors yesterday that like, alphabet motor is getting into print on demand. And so I wonder if they are like scooping up scraps from DTG to go like, how crazy would it be if SS activewear did print on demand for us? That would be wild, right? I don’t know what’s going to happen with all this stuff.

00:08:33:21 – 00:08:52:10

I mean, we all kind of just aren’t guessing, but I hope I think it’s I mean, just a quick look at it. For me, it seems like it’s going to be awesome because I hate I hated the fact of going to Broder for a couple things and getting the bulk of my stuff for my sons, and that’s a that’s to me has always been great and rolled and, you know, whatever.

00:08:52:10 – 00:09:14:01

So if now I can just get 99% of what I want to get from one place, and it’s got way more distribution centers and everything else. And like you said, Steven, like the Prime Line stuff like never really affected me. I’m not like a contract shop anyway. So like, it’s not like I’m fighting for that business. But do you think you’ll push it more now that it’s going to be underestimated?

00:09:14:02 – 00:09:33:08

Umbrella. If it moves over, I think it would be easier to order promo products from them with that, you know, through Prime and stuff, because we do that once in a very while. But like, I just like that it’s all in one place. But again, like, you never know what’s going to happen now, because realistically, in my eyes, I only ever ordered from three places.

00:09:33:08 – 00:09:56:20

I order from essence, broker and Same Hour. And like I said, 95% of what I order for was from less than that. So the other two kind of got some scraps, but now you realistically, now it’s down to two. So we’ll have to see what happens. Steven, it just occurred to me that we were beta testing a DTF direct from S and S.

00:09:56:22 – 00:10:18:20

we never used it much, so we were a terrible beta site, but, what they were offering was you can purchase DTF either just the film or a completed shirt. So in other words, like you can go on, order 100 shirts, you know, put put them in your cart and then upload what you want transferred on them.

00:10:18:20 – 00:10:37:03

And then it’s just a full service. Right. So it shows you could even dropship it to your customer, or it could just come to your shop. And so they were offering that. And so it occurred to me that if you’re if you’re if that’s what Alpha Brodeur was getting into, well, then maybe it is more than just, you know, more warehouses and everything like that.

00:10:37:03 – 00:11:05:00

So. Okay. Do you think that is harming our industry or helping it? Because I could see different perspectives of people that DTF and House and heat press are like, what the heck? They’re taking business that we would normally do. How do you feel about that? I think in my situation, we kind of had this talk the other day, especially after we listened to your guys’s episode, with Cole, just kind of like, what if we did want to keep downsizing?

00:11:05:02 – 00:11:30:08

Not necessarily just for financial reasons and everything else, but what if we just downsized to the point where I had, say, six, eight employees and they were all the good key employees, and we did what we wanted to do and what we didn’t want to do, we turned out, and that was kind of what you were saying. Stephen on the thing is, just like if you were to go back, you would think to maybe outsource more than to kind of keep it all in-house.

00:11:30:08 – 00:11:49:11

So to me, it was just kind of that thought of, you know, now if, say, the essence broker thing and they’re doing DDG and they’re doing, DTF and even printing or whatever, like just ordering your shirts and ordering your prints all from one place and just have it delivered directly to your customer or to your shop and have it picked up.

00:11:49:11 – 00:12:09:03

It’s kind of like, I don’t feel like doing that job. I don’t feel like doing that job. And you just ordered all from there. I mean, realistically kind of seems kind of cool. But yeah, to all the people who are just like doing DTF at home and whatever else, it kind of sucks for them. But it’s kind of again, it all boils down to like, who was I having this conversation with?

00:12:09:04 – 00:12:34:09

I don’t know, with some of the other day where like, oh, TC, where I was saying more and more, I feel like we’re like an agency or a customer service company that just kind of like pulling all these things for merchandise for, for our client. It’s not necessarily like we’re a print shop. So I don’t know, it’s just another again, it’s another tool to where we could just sit on our desks and order shit and get it done.

00:12:34:13 – 00:12:57:22

But but what about you, Andy? How do you feel? I think, for the people who own DTF machines, which I would say is a pretty small percentage currently that that’s changing. Obviously. Then maybe it does. It’s not a good thing because it will you would consider that competition, but for the people who don’t and they’re ordering it in anyway.

00:12:57:22 – 00:13:24:23

And then pressing in-house. I’ll give you an example. We have 300 pair of shorts to to DTF heat press. And they’ve been sitting over there for a few days because nobody has time to get to it. Because why it’s slow. It take it’s a process. You know, you have to put somebody on that. We have people out on PTO and we’re just struggling to get things done with screen printing and embroidery now also, and you have to put somebody on 300 pair of shorts, which is going to, you know, that takes time.

00:13:24:23 – 00:13:40:24

And so if they could have just showed up here done I mean that’s a solution. Right. And so it’s a solution that we would very have consider. We would of course, I mean I, we would if the price is right we would consider it and we just be done to worry about it. Yeah. I mean I’m assuming the quality would be great.

00:13:40:24 – 00:13:56:22

Right. And so they, they have people on that. They’re trained and they’re skilled and shows up and it’s done. And I think that would be a great solution. So I think the I think it makes sense I think the why not I’m not I’m okay with it. as far as the contract screen printing, I mean, we’re not a contract screen printer.

00:13:56:22 – 00:14:18:00

We do have some hybrid contract customers, I guess you would call it, but, you know, that’s not really the core of our business. And so I’m okay with that, too, because we are a, a premium. I like to think of us as a premium contract printer. Like, it’s a, it’s a premium price for premium service. It’s not just load some screens and print and who cares?

00:14:18:00 – 00:14:34:14

You know, we care. And so the people that come to us are coming to us for a reason. They’re going to they can get it cheaper elsewhere. And so I’m okay with with that fact too. I, I do like, I’m interested to, to to see what they do because I have a feeling they might, might not do that anymore.

00:14:34:14 – 00:14:55:10

I think that that’s a lot to take on. And why do they want to be in that game? You know what I’m saying? That’s a it’s a weird, they’re very, very good. SNS is I consider the best ad, and warehousing, pulling and shipping blankies. that as many issues. Yeah. So why complicated and and do a bunch of other things.

00:14:55:10 – 00:15:20:02

Do you. Just what you’re good at and that’s what I, I’m all in on what we’re good at here. And so I think that it complicates it to try and all of a sudden become a contract printer or not a. Yeah, a contract printer. That’s hard. But if you think about it, if it was your job, Andy. So I bought a Roland VG 540, sticker banner printer and then we discovered signed 365 and B sign and, you know, sticker meal or whatever.

00:15:20:02 – 00:15:36:12

So like, that machine collects dust. I don’t regret buying it because we still use it. But so I think like if you have a DTF machine and the service out there, it would still be smart to try it out because then you could focus on sales and not hiring people and, and being able to to to do that.

00:15:36:14 – 00:15:58:23

If it was your job to go into essence and design a system. All right, Bruce, I’ll ask you this to say, hey, you know, if Dylan from upstate wants to order 24 shirts with a DTF print on it, write out the process. It doesn’t seem that complicated. DTF prints come out, they meet the shirts, they get heat pressed, put in a box.

00:15:58:23 – 00:16:16:07

It’s like it just takes an extra day. Feels like it could be a really easy value add for them to do, I don’t know. Yeah, it doesn’t seem super now if it was, ship it individually. Okay, now you’re a fulfillment center, those kind of things. But like slapping, you know, DTF prints on a shirt and shipping them out.

00:16:16:09 – 00:16:39:24

I feel like they do harder things than that. Doesn’t seem that hard. I think that’s true until you get to the scale that they’re at with, you know, how they’re shipping their turnaround time, the amount of people, the amount of orders are handling. I mean, imagine $4 billion in blanks, basically, let’s just call it like, let’s just ignore the decorating part.

00:16:39:24 – 00:17:08:07

Let’s just call it in blanks. like how many blank shirts is that picked pack, you know, shipped out, you know, all the logistics around it, the warehousing like this scale to get it quickly to wherever you’re at and be able to route the orders correctly. I just my mind explodes. Even thinking about, I mean, have you seen that ass color video that guy did on YouTube?

00:17:08:07 – 00:17:37:07

When they tour the color facility, there’s robots like picking boxes off and pulling stuff and bringing it to the front and everything. I was going to say that’s how it was. I visited, SS in Jersey and it was all robotic. Yeah, there was like so much, I mean, automation. I spent a day at Printful, which is true pod on demand sublimation embroidery, DTF, and the problems that they’re solving are just light years ahead of the problems we’re solving.

00:17:37:11 – 00:17:56:17

You know? So it’s like, I don’t think a $4 billion company is going to figure out how to do it. And I think to your point, Dylan, it turned this into more agents or brokers, which. Right. That might be okay. I don’t know, would you Andy, would you Dylan, you talked about downsizing like, you know, thinking it through.

00:17:56:22 – 00:18:26:08

Would you do that, Andy. It sure. Can you know it to a point where you felt either lifestyle wise was better to manage or easier to manage or. I mean, obviously in the whole story, it was more profitability. You’re saying downsizing, screen printing and growing, just end up outsourcing or just outsourcing more? Just, I’ll just say it more in general.

00:18:26:10 – 00:18:46:24

And then, obviously you could pick what, you know, the shorts have been sitting there, the. Yeah. I’m sure there’s other things that are sitting there, things that you don’t want to do or larger stuff that tie stuff up for too long or, I don’t know. That’s interesting question. I think that people, you know, I think that’s the other problem too, is like managing more and more people.

00:18:47:01 – 00:19:05:22

Yeah. Is, is a difficult exercise and like, I’m, I’m not downsizing. I’m just saying, like, the thought of it more and more with the way things are changing. And that was a discussion I took the other day, was just kind of like, things are changing so rapidly now than they ever have, like being a big screen printer for 15 years.

00:19:05:22 – 00:19:19:21

It was kind of autopilot for the most part. It was like, this is the formula to like, get a customer, print the shirt, send it out. I feel like the last five years is all been like, all right, I’m going to pivot to doing this kind of outbound, okay. I’m going to pivot to now we’re doing DTF and okay.

00:19:19:21 – 00:19:41:16

Now we’re going to do you know and this it’s like it’s every other fucking six months. We’re thinking of a new strategy to run this business. I think the mindset shift is you know we sometimes scale our businesses up to the peaks and the valleys. Like if you looked at the the industry five years ago, but when we hit a peak, we went out and bought more equipment and hired more people.

00:19:41:18 – 00:19:58:22

Go to the trade show. I’m slammed. I need to buy a new price, I need to buy more embroidery machines, whatever. And then the valley is hit and we’re like, oh crap, we can’t afford to have this shoot. I probably should have scaled back and outsourced right now. We still want those peaks of business, but we’re not going out and buying more stuff.

00:19:58:22 – 00:20:22:12

We’re just finding other solutions. So we’re like running our business to the valleys so that when the peaks hit, that’s gravy versus a stressful time. And I think for sure that’s the mindset shift that the industry is taking, which sucks for the equipment manufacturers right now. I would not be them. Yeah. Which I think ties into sorry, Andy, I didn’t mean to cut you off there, but I, I thought that needed to be said before it kind of went into what you wanted to talk about today.

00:20:22:13 – 00:20:48:14

Like basically that leads into at what point do you fight the game and then you figure out, hey, this is what I want to do. So you want to tie into that? Yeah, I think like, honestly, we could make just this discussion about s and s an entire episode, like, we’re just we’re already halfway in. You know, it’s like, there’s just so much to say about it and there’s so much to speculate, you know?

00:20:48:16 – 00:21:07:11

it’s very interesting move in r in it. I think it really does affect our industry. I mean, Steven said a minute ago about prices, you know, and so what is that? It’s not a monopoly, but there are fewer and fewer distributors. And so I think that, you know, there are benefits to it, but it just it’s fascinating.

00:21:07:11 – 00:21:23:10

And we could really just probably keep going for half hour. But if you want to just talk about I’m just glad it was them, you know, I mean I’m glad it’s them that’s growing the good guy like Nick. So they’re all great people. San Martin, us and I have a great amount of respect for both companies, but like I said, it does do things a little different.

00:21:23:10 – 00:21:41:14

They still run their company like a family business, or at least it feels like it. So like I’m genuinely happy that it was them that way rather than, you know, Alpha acquiring that’s in us. Right? With you, Dylan, I would have what do you what do you got, Andy. Yeah, I guess my my thought is what is an exit plan?

00:21:41:16 – 00:22:06:02

Should you have one and do you have one? And for the longest time, I mean, I guess I knew sort of what an exit plan was. I didn’t know all of the different options or anything, but I, I knew sort of what one was. I probably should have had one. You know, I think it’s responsible. It’s a responsible thing to do.

00:22:06:02 – 00:22:27:01

Like, if I were to get hit by a bus, then what happens? I mean, you explode. Besides that, you know what happens to this place. And so I think if you have an exit plan in place, well, then, you know, then you could have legacy and your team could continue to exist. The place could continue to exist.

00:22:27:01 – 00:22:51:15

And so, yeah, you probably should have an exit plan. I didn’t have one, though I still don’t. And so I’m, I’m wrestling with that. And it only is because while one I had another birthday and two I, I had I was in a mess with my back and I it it gave me new perspective and it made me start really considering.

00:22:51:17 – 00:23:11:08

What happens after this place if you know, if it ever if that ever happens, like, should I walk away? At what point do I walk away? Do you walk away when your trajectory is up or do you walk away when it’s down? I think we know the answer to that. I mean, it’s, it’s just a difficult time.

00:23:11:08 – 00:23:33:24

And so, I have a lot of respect for people who have gone through this and who have made the decision to decide to sell and whether it’s because of burnout or, I mean, whatever their reason is, I have a lot of respect because I think another component of this is that afterwards, you know, who are you? You know what is emotionally, mentally like, what are you what do you do?

00:23:33:24 – 00:24:01:04

Do you just like putz around in your in your lawn and cut the grass every single day? Dylan. You could. Amazing. yeah. I think that I’m struggling that every day. So, so, so the question I have is, why do you think. And this could be more of a small business owners, but why do you think our type of companies, you know, small business owners, especially in this industry, do not have an exit plan?

00:24:01:06 – 00:24:20:01

I guess it’s so fucking DIY from the beginning, and it’s most of the people who want to get into it are punk kids that were in a band that started a business, and then they get to and this is, this is me, like, you know, I wasn’t I don’t want to say I wasn’t much of anything before this, but like, I didn’t have a plan.

00:24:20:01 – 00:24:37:00

Like, I went to college and dropped out because I had already started, merch buttons. And I was like, fuck this place. These all these kids want to do is draw anime all day. Like, I don’t want to do that. And then, I just started this company, and, like, ever since then, it’s kind of grown the way I want it to.

00:24:37:00 – 00:24:51:16

And it’s like my identity now, and it’s like, you know, it’s what I love to do. So, like, I don’t ever want to see that end. I don’t want to think now, like, oh, I got this thing. Let’s figure out how to get the fuck out of it. I think an exit plan isn’t necessarily getting out of it, though.

00:24:51:17 – 00:25:15:03

Either or or like, let’s think like, is it? But is it stepping away or is there are other potential options? I’m sure there’s other options. I think what Dylan said, though, is like we identify with our businesses so closely that we don’t even understand or fathom what exit means. Like, I’ve done this, this is my life. I’ve rebelled to create this company.

00:25:15:03 – 00:25:33:10

It’s serving me, exit. Like what? You know, and I think to Andy’s point, though, and I kind of started doing this recently and I don’t remember how it started, but like, after I got divorced, one of the things I was doing was like, all right, I need to change my life insurance, I need to do this and this.

00:25:33:10 – 00:25:45:12

And I was like, I should probably create a will. And then I went and had the meeting with the lawyers to, like, go over, like getting the will done. And I’m also when he was talking to me about it, it was just kind of like, well, you’re going to have to think about this, think about this, think about this.

00:25:45:12 – 00:26:03:12

I was like, dude, I have no fucking idea where I’m going to be at in my life. When I do say I die old age, I’m like my opinion on who gets my shit and where it goes and what’s going to happen is going to change so drastically between now and, you know, whatever age. And he’s like, no, let’s just get an outline.

00:26:03:12 – 00:26:21:09

So like if you get hit by a bus tomorrow, like it roughly this happens. This person takes over your business. Your kids get this at age whatever and so on. So I’m kind of thinking with this exit plan or exit strategy, it’s like, do I at least get an outline to where I know roughly where I’m going to go?

00:26:21:09 – 00:26:44:19

But the details are going to change year by year until I get there. So that’s my curiosity. Like, I have no plan of leaving, I have no plan of stopping, but I have no plan at all right now. So that’s the scary part is just like, what happens if you get to a point where, like in Kohl’s case, where it’s kind of like, fuck, I got to do something like he was like, oh, I was fine.

00:26:44:19 – 00:27:00:22

And in the winter thinking, hey, spring is going to come and be awesome. And then you got a couple months to decide what you’re going to do for the rest of your life. So I don’t necessarily want that to happen. I want to have somewhat of a plan in place to where when I’m ready, I can be like, all right, this is what I do.

00:27:00:22 – 00:27:27:00

This is where I got a contact. Whatever. Right? Okay. Put an exit. Plan B also be considered as still being, like running the company, but not, you know, 50 hours, six hours a week, I think. Yes and no. I think that, you know, you and I have talked before about, that Andrew Wilkinson episode. I think it was right.

00:27:27:00 – 00:27:53:15

Is that did I say his name? and, you know, he’s an advocate of hiring a CEO. He has, like, 25 companies or whatever, and hire a CEO to run that company, and they report to him once a quarter or whatever it is. but still you are. Do you think it’s possible, Mike Dillon? Stephen, do you think it’s possible to, not wake up in the morning and still think about your business?

00:27:53:15 – 00:28:11:21

You know, unless you’re truly exited, if you have somebody running it, are you are you do you still have that weight? Are you still carrying that business around in the back of your mind? Like, do you can you truly detach? That’s a good question. I actually I wonder if the question that you think about is like, all right.

00:28:11:21 – 00:28:38:00

If I think longer term. So you, you talked about your back. Right. So going through that has really sparked some thoughts around those you talked about, you know, your birthday and stuff. And maybe that thought was okay in five years or ten years, whatever the timeframe is, what do I want my life to look like? Workwise and personally, and what do I want to be spending my time on during the day?

00:28:38:00 – 00:29:01:17

And maybe that’s sort of this mystical North star in a way that backs into it, and maybe that’s quote unquote, you know, exit. What were you saying, Stephen? I think as long as you have some ownership stake, you’re going to have interest, right? So like, Andy, I think what you’re saying is if I hire a CEO tomorrow to run or a president to run short, Kong and I take a six month vacation, it’s still in the back of my head.

00:29:01:19 – 00:29:22:01

How’s everything going? How’s it going to do? Is it better if I’m there? You know, like, is that what you’re saying? Yeah. I mean, because what happens if you’re down the road because you went off and on the Appalachian Trail, you come back to a shell of the company. It was, let’s say, somebody, you know, the whoever you hired, it’s it’s half of for whatever reason, it’s crash.

00:29:22:01 – 00:29:39:06

Like some employees leave because they’re like, oh, you know, this guy sucks. Or, you know, you lose some customers and and now you’ve got to come rescue this thing that you had built, you know? Is it better? Is that okay? You know, because there’s that risk. Right. But you’re also de-risking your life a little bit too by like getting yourself out of it.

00:29:39:06 – 00:30:06:18

So like, yeah, anything can go to zero. But wouldn’t you, wouldn’t you be wise enough to set up a board and a structure and like, you know, essentially you’re just a stakeholder of this company. I mean, isn’t that what some of the biggest I mean, the guys that own the most, like Andrew Wilkinson. Right. Like, I’m sure he has some that struggle and some that do poorly and some that do well.

00:30:06:20 – 00:30:28:03

But like now he’s a business coach, an advisor, not an operator. So it’s like when it just be more fun to be an operator or a coach, like consult for your own company rather than actually operate day to day. I think the hard part is, is that we start this business with dreams and goals, and this is where I would like to be.

00:30:28:03 – 00:30:45:09

And I’m going to fight, fight, fight tooth and nail and 24, seven and weekends and all this other stuff to like get to that goal. And then you hire these people that are really good in their positions. Doug. Oh, these customer service people can handle the customers and they can get the jobs to the door, and they get a flow on the system and they can handle this shit all day.

00:30:45:09 – 00:31:05:24

But the problem is, is like without say, without me, but like without me, the person who started the company and wants to get to this goal, I feel like everyone’s on autopilot, like I feel like everyone who works here is doing their job. Customers are coming in and things are going, but there’s no fight to like, grow anything or get new customers.

00:31:05:24 – 00:31:22:08

Or maybe try a new avenue like, oh, we’re going to do live printing now, or we’re going to try this thing, or we’re going to try this thing and fail and or succeed or whatever. I feel like it’s just autopilot, like it’s like I could leave for two months and come back and like, things ran. Shirts were printed, everything was good.

00:31:22:08 – 00:31:41:21

But like, we were here, we didn’t do this. We did it. So yes, I think there are two things that are true. I agree with that I couldn’t like, especially when when, you know, you take longer time off, you absolutely see that. But I also think that there are other people that can do that for you as well.

00:31:41:23 – 00:32:12:03

And it’s hard to find and they’re more expensive. But there are people that if correctly incentivized it literally just like a salary and a good comp plan. And I think that’s more I think that’s more scary to me is to have somebody else’s vision come in after I’ve been doing this for so long and they’re like, I think this is how this place should be ran, and I want to take these risks and, oh, we’re going to go try to do oh, you know, it would be a great idea is it’s like I went and did a Shark Tank thing at a college for all these kids, and they had to start a clothing line.

00:32:12:03 – 00:32:29:20

And the thing was that it was going to do this and whatever, and every single one of them was like, oh, we’re going to buy a massive warehouse and we’re going to, you know, get 100 DTG machines and all this other stuff. And the whole time I’m like, fucking grabbing my head and shit. I’m like, there’s, this is the this is the worst plan ever.

00:32:29:22 – 00:33:00:07

That’s what I’m saying. I don’t want to get someone ambitious in here and be like, this is what we’re going to do. And then they’re going to go the way that we know is the wrong way to go. And it’s just like, I don’t know, like I, I don’t want to say it’s my decision or my plan or my dream or nothing, but I guess, I mean, if we looked at shirt Kong and Upstate from a leadership structure, you guys are like head captain, president, CEO, chief Financial officer, like, you make every big decision and everyone kind of has to follow your suit.

00:33:00:09 – 00:33:25:17

But and so until there is a true leader there that’s not you. Are you surprised? No, I’m not, but I don’t ever see me getting to that point where I have another me unless I am leaving. But couldn’t you say, you know, you got the business to a point where it’s generating a ton of cash and then you’re just overpaying for great leadership?

00:33:25:19 – 00:33:52:16

You know, you’re hiring six figure employees as a, as a, you know, your CFO or your head of sales or your head of marketing, like seasoned execs. I just think my goal is, again, like the whole exit strategy thing is like, I want to see out my dream or my plan for this company, have what I wanted to be or do, and then I’d be like, I can just go start a lawn service now, you know what I mean?

00:33:52:16 – 00:34:10:08

Like, I can get out of this. I can hire someone to run it. I got Cat, this is what I’m trying to tell Andy before was like, you get to a point where it kind of is autopilot and you are doing what you wanted to do. You’re the fucking best print shop in Saint Louis. And you know, everyone likes the Kong and all this other stuff, and you’re doing you’re doing it.

00:34:10:08 – 00:34:24:14

You’re doing exactly what you wanted to do. Why not just have somebody run the place and then you go do what it is you want to do in life, and then it just runs. You don’t need to go up any more. You don’t need to go down. You’re just kind of doing your thing. You’re good with this. Plaid is fine.

00:34:24:16 – 00:34:42:19

Dylan, is this a product of potentially your age? I mean, do you think that exit plans sort of correlate to how old you are? I mean, is that a, I mean, I know people sell their business, or you can sell your business at any age and then start something else. Let’s say you’ve burned down. You want to start something else.

00:34:42:19 – 00:34:58:17

But I mean, do you think it correlates to your age? I mean, to a degree. But I also feel like, again, it’s like, did I reach my goal yet? I feel like if for right now, I reached my goal and I was like, yeah, this is exactly what we’re do, or this shop that handles all these things. Things are great and we’re fine.

00:34:58:17 – 00:35:21:03

Now. Then I could be like, I have nowhere to go, like I have nowhere to grow. I mean, true friend opinions, right? Because Dylan, Dylan clearly has 95% left in the tank. Right. And the way you bring it up, I could see it’s like, oh, maybe there’s like 60, 70% in the tank of like, yeah, I could keep going, but I’m starting to consider these other options that may make sense.

00:35:21:05 – 00:35:43:13

Yeah, the 60 to 70% is generous of you. So I appreciate that. But I was I try to be part it. But I think what you’re saying, Andy, is would you rather start thinking about it now whether you’re 95, five, 60 or 20, would you rather start thinking about it now? And I have everything in place so that way is this plan a business plan when that comes?

00:35:43:13 – 00:36:06:15

You know, these are the five things I gotta look for, you know, and because. Good. Because your business may not even be sellable. You know, it’s not in a position where you could even sell it. And and if you want to get it to where it could be sold, does that take six months, a year? Three years, you know, like what kind of processes and management and all that sort of stuff do you have in place?

00:36:06:15 – 00:36:27:13

And if you don’t have any of that, well, then you better get going on that. And so I think that, I think, Dylan, I think you would sell your business. I, I could be wrong, but if somebody walked in to upstate merch right now, while we’re on this podcast and into your office and had a checkbook out and said, hey, I will like, what is the number I have to write on this check to buy upstate merch?

00:36:27:13 – 00:36:44:19

Do you have a number or is it always a no? Like, this is my thing. still on my right now would be a no. No matter the number, no matter the number, no way you can say I smell bullshit, I can, I can. I left a million, I thought, what am I going to do? What am I going to do with $50 million?

00:36:44:19 – 00:36:58:08

You go my mind. You decided that I’ll be fucking bored the rest of you. Long takes a week or two to start another show. What am I going to do for a week and a half? You buy all the orders you want. Why the fuck always start over? That sucks. Dick. I don’t want to do that. You would.

00:36:58:11 – 00:37:15:19

Okay, so what do you to do? Yeah, it’s like, regardless of the the money, I enjoy waking up in the morning going for a walk in the Lake Como. You don’t shine, but say you’re hanging out here. And if I’m fucking poor friend, miserable like the rest of us still in school? Not. I’m happy doing this every day.

00:37:15:24 – 00:37:36:23

And I think, okay, in our world of, like, the investors and venture capital, they call it a life changing experience. Like what’s what’s, you know, eventually if I sold Campus Inc, what’s that life changing amount? And I think for you, this is the first time we ask you, what’s the life changing amount of money that you would sell your business for a greater than 50?

00:37:37:02 – 00:37:54:07

I don’t, okay, it’s $50 million, right? I’m fine. Maybe it’s $1 million. Maybe it’s a half million dollars. Maybe you actually don’t get any money up front, but you get 20 grand a month for the net. I want I want the win for life. Take it where I get whatever it is. $1,000 a week for life or whatever the hell that.

00:37:54:07 – 00:38:14:21

But honestly, those are earn outs, right? Like if you got the right acquire or they could buy the company for $2 million and give you ten grand a month for the next 15 years, whatever. Like there’s there’s tons of ways to structure it. It’s just the it’s just the thing is like even the thought like, for example, next week me and Christine are going to try to go on like some kind of vacation.

00:38:14:21 – 00:38:34:20

And the biggest struggle we’re having isn’t that we don’t have the money to go like we have the money to go. We have the means. We can fucking travel ever anywhere in the world. But my biggest concern is like, what are we going to do? Like, I don’t, I’m going to be so bored. Like if I were like, oh, let’s just go to the beach for five days, it’s like I will be bored out of my fucking skull.

00:38:34:22 – 00:39:00:19

Like we could we could write an itinerary for you. Where you go? I’m just saying, like, I like this, like I am. The amount of money to spend is where I am now. What I’m doing. Like I have money, I have savings, I have things going on. I’m good financially and I choose to fucking wear old navy shorts, a beat up upstate shirt, vans and coming to work and fucking shooting the shit with my friends and playing video games tonight.

00:39:00:21 – 00:39:27:09

What I’m hearing choice. What I’m hearing is that you’re really happy and content and that makes me happy for you. but also that there isn’t really, I think that you you like what you do. One of your hobbies happens to be being an entrepreneur, owning a screen printing business. It’s something you like doing. And so you would you’re talking about taking that away.

00:39:27:11 – 00:39:43:14

Like if, you know, somebody said to Bruce, like, hey, what kind of dollar amount do I have to write on this check right now for you to never surf again? You’d be like, go. You know, go might get fucked. Like, I like surfing. I’m not going to just give that up. I mean, it’s not worth anything. Like it’s invaluable.

00:39:43:14 – 00:40:04:05

It’s priceless, in other words. And so maybe what Dylan is saying is that he he enjoys right now, maybe not in five years or ten or whatever it is right now. That’s what I’m saying, is the circumstances change at a certain point. So say right now, my biggest enjoyment is that the people I love and care about my best friends are here with me.

00:40:04:07 – 00:40:24:05

But if, say they had other plans in life or they moved on or something happened to them or whatever, and they’re gone and it’s just me, I’d probably sell in like three days. I’d be like, I am, so I’m done. Today upstate is close to your identity. It brings you joy. You don’t want that to go away. There’s not a price tag there.

00:40:24:05 – 00:40:45:03

But if in five years from now a huge company said, we want you to come be an executive here for a crazy man. Blows all the post-it notes off Dylan’s desk. Yeah, right. Oh, it’s going to take as one fan to knock me imagine, imagine like there’s a life like. Because I think the interesting thing about it is each one of you are valuable in your own specific ways.

00:40:45:03 – 00:41:05:02

Right? And, you know, there are big companies out there that would love to work with us. And so, Dylan, it’s like, what if what if Gildan was like Dylan, we want you to be the CEO of Gildan. I think you can talk to your position okay okay. Number four. Right. Like that’s all we want you to do.

00:41:05:04 – 00:41:25:01

Right. what is it going to take for you to live? Well we just need to write a check for your shop or, you know, whatever. All right, give me the number four position. I will talk t shirts all day long. Let me pay for me to come. And I’m also want jobs for six of my best friends to come with me.

00:41:25:03 – 00:41:49:23

And we’re going to live in Barbados. Let’s do it. Great. That’s an exit. I mean, yeah, but like, I’m still in the world. Like I’m. What I’m saying is, like, I don’t want to exit and then start over, like, oh, I want to run pizza shops now or something, like, I don’t want a new career. I want to do this until my ideal goal is sitting, staring off my front porch and mowing my lawn once a week.

00:41:50:00 – 00:42:11:01

Okay, I have a question. What are all become about me now? And I don’t like it. Okay, maybe maybe we’ll pin this on Andy and Bruce a little bit. What are the red flags you see in shops that that don’t make them sellable? You said that Andy earlier you said like some shops aren’t sellable where there’s not a lot of value there.

00:42:11:03 – 00:42:39:19

And I think those are the red flags. Great question. Your listeners might want to learn about our what do you when you go and see a shop, what do you look for and what are the red flags that don’t make it sellable? I can share a couple. If you were buying a shop too, maybe. Yeah. I think that if if our customer base only knows me and and just contacts me, and I am and I, you know, I go away.

00:42:39:21 – 00:42:59:19

That probably means most of our customers go away. And so I think your business would be way less valuable, right? I mean, the there’s there’s different assets within your business. Some of them are is equipment, you know, the what we’re printing with. And then there’s also there’s this goodwill or whatever you’d call it of your customers. That’s a very important asset.

00:42:59:19 – 00:43:21:23

Right. And so if, if I start, if they’re all contacting me, then that’s a problem. And so I think account managers, you have to have, you know, account managers in place. And then, or let’s say I’m an owner operator, let’s say I’m the production manager, like I’m or the and also press operator, if somebody, wants to acquire me and and I go away, then who runs the press?

00:43:21:23 – 00:43:43:16

You know, who runs production. And so I think key people are like another really important thing. So there’s a couple that I would I would share. So I just important what I’m hearing is if the owner had to leave the company for six months and the company could not run or it would be running on, on, on, crap like that is not a sellable company.

00:43:43:16 – 00:44:12:12

When the owner is too tight in or they’re the face of the business, meaning the company is going to essentially like collapse on itself when they leave. That’s not a sellable company. Okay, Bruce, what about you? I mean, I think profitability is a big one or too much debt. I think that’s those are big red flags. I mean, unless you’re some sort of strategic purchase of whether maybe it’s an account like sometimes ad agencies or by other ad agencies to try to acquire just to ship in the accounts.

00:44:12:12 – 00:44:45:18

Yeah. Talent to like let’s say you have talent like a lot of, you know, your team is really talented. It’s a good point. And yeah, they want to acquire your team basically to to run production for their whatever. They’re however they’re growing. Yeah. You’re so part of your team. Yeah. But yeah go ahead. No keep going. Because I do think though that unfortunately in those cases you’re not optimizing your your exit plan essentially like you, you know, you’re kind of bottom of the barrel scraping.

00:44:45:18 – 00:45:07:13

If it’s just someone pulling the team or someone’s grabbing it for a couple accounts, right? It’s not. Whereas on the opposite side of the spectrum, a really strong, profitable business that’s growing, that’s the pinnacle area that’s, you know, okay, great. You’re going to get the essentially the most multiple also of your profitability of what the business valuation is.

00:45:07:13 – 00:45:30:05

You know what I find ironic about profitability? Small business owners sometimes take pride in showing no profit. Have you guys a real agree disagree. Like I was able to pay no taxes this year. I got my profit down to nothing. I got all this new equipment right? Like, we never we never show profit. Do you guys hear that?

00:45:30:05 – 00:45:46:11

Or am I just I, I agree with that. Yeah. And so I think it’s like it’s like a badge of honor, like, oh, I didn’t have to pay taxes this year because I was able to buy all this equipment at the end of the year, and I was able to schedule 1079 a whatever this and that. I used to have two business partners.

00:45:46:11 – 00:46:07:05

Now I have one. And this is where they differed in opinion, where it’s like, you know, make profit, pay the taxes, put that in the bank and do it again, because at the end of the day, like there’s there’s going to be something that’s worth something versus I just trick the system year after year after year after year and show $0.

00:46:07:05 – 00:46:25:01

I had this discussion, you know, if you remember the same thing, it was maybe two years ago or something where I was saying I was trying to spend X amount of dollars so I didn’t have to give it to the government and I whatever. And you were just like, now fuck it, pay the tax, put the rest in your savings account, buy a fucking US bond or whatever the fuck it was and call it good.

00:46:25:03 – 00:46:52:05

Yeah, I mean, it’s one thing if you need the equipment, right? I mean, then it’s it’s, I mean, it’s smart. You’re you’re being strategic and you’re saying, oh, we need to add, an auto reclaim or something. And so you can take that deduct deduction. you can accelerate it. but you have to also consider is that when you’ve, depreciated that equipment to nothing, when you do go sell your business and you sell it as an asset sale, then all of a sudden it’s a cap gain.

00:46:52:05 – 00:47:15:19

And so you’re going to have to pay taxes on it anyway. High tax. Yeah. And so like I when I talk to shops and they say well we’re not profitable. But I did this, this and this, I would just say you’re not profitable. But like I want to see 15% profit month over month because that’s healthy. And someone can look at that and value it like in one minute, you know.

00:47:15:21 – 00:47:39:07

So I think that’s kind of, a deceiving property of small business owners, is that they don’t show profit. Also, a thing to bring up. And this is kind of like, like Andy was talking about exit strategies or whatever. And we were also talking about the way the market changes constantly is like, at what point are you just like, what I have here is not where the future of this industry is going.

00:47:39:09 – 00:48:04:22

Like, well, you could be like, I have 14 autos and they’re all 16 color prices and this and this. And it’s like, well, the future is more, let’s all get six color prices and carousel DTF like keep prices and this and this. And it’s like okay cool. You hold out for another ten years. Are you worth like anything because no one wants to fucking buy all those prices and no one wants to buy this giant screen printing business that no one’s really going that route anymore.

00:48:04:23 – 00:48:24:12

Like it’s just kind of a giant waste. You know, I think, I think I don’t know what we’re. I guess we’re coming up on, time here. I don’t know if you how long you guys have, because I feel like this could go on and on for, like, we’re not even halfway because going. Let’s keep going.

00:48:24:12 – 00:48:43:06

We got to go for a little while. This is a mic. this is like an iPod game. There’s a lot of, you know, we didn’t even get really into it. I know that we don’t even have, like, different options as far as exiting. And I had this. I coincidentally, was listening to, my first million on the way in about this.

00:48:43:08 – 00:49:07:08

they were talking about this guy who sold his company and then went to work at McDonald’s. He sold his company for like 15 million, you know, and then went to work at McDonald’s. Like, why, you know, why would you do something like that? And his answer was, and he didn’t go to work there for long, like he actually went and worked applied at McDonald’s to be like on in the kitchen, like on not for management, you know, just working with everyone else.

00:49:07:08 – 00:49:30:16

And his answer was that, you know, he had been hanging around, a certain type of person, for the past several years. And he wanted to, like, reset and, and just learn what it was like to do normal stuff. And he missed that. And so he went and did the normal thing. And, it taught him a lot.

00:49:30:16 – 00:49:52:13

And so I super respect that. It’d be so wild. So like, just something to consider is like, what do you do after? And so let’s say I sold. Sure. Calm tomorrow, you know, where do I. I think it’s a great idea to reset. Just go do something basic, you know, and and and not not to try and, diminish what those roles are because that’s important stuff to you.

00:49:52:13 – 00:50:19:12

There’s just a lot to learn. Like, you can learn a whole lot of what you want to do next by just going and doing working for somebody else. It doesn’t mean that you have to go start like start this next business, if that makes sense. It’s funny, I literally thought this yesterday, like, I took the kids to Roadhouse and we had steaks, and then we went and saw movies and it was like I was like, I kind of, how cool would it be to like moonlight as, like a bartender just to like, because I’ve just done this for 18 years now.

00:50:19:14 – 00:50:35:14

Like, how cool would it be to be like, I’m a bartender and you’re that old wise bartender who people come and talk to you about things. And I’ve always thought two of like, I would love to learn how to weld and then like, do fun projects on the side, like welding or like just working, doing something else. Like on the side.

00:50:35:14 – 00:50:53:10

I even thought about Uber. I was like, I’ll just go drive Uber to like at night on weeknights when I’m bored and alone, I can just like drive people around and then just like hear crazy stories and shit. Like cruise. If we could ask you, you had an exit. You’re obviously still involved in some capacity, but you’re starting to live.

00:50:53:10 – 00:51:18:01

You know, you’re starting this, like, next chapter of your life. Could you talk about mentally what you went through, what you’re thinking about? I mean, I think it’s really interesting. there’s a lot to unpack there. I think don’t mention having an identity to the business. That’s a very difficult thing to overcome. And your middle name, is it on Facebook?

00:51:18:03 – 00:51:41:23

You could probably just help. Okay. but there’s, you know, when the company is being ran by someone else, it’s not your company anyway. And so that’s like a very difficult thing to get used to and to be able to step back and not make those decisions or not step in and, you know, try to redirect the boat a different way because you caused friction that way.

00:51:41:23 – 00:52:06:22

Right? It’s it’s it’s not your thing. Like you exchanged money or incentives or whatever it is for the ownership of that company. So that part’s over. And then I think the the second phase is definitely a urge to like, jump in and try to do something. So that’s, you know, start something again, go, go, you know, do something else.

00:52:06:22 – 00:52:28:00

Like, I think we’ve all been successful here from being a doer, right. Like that’s how you just you pick stuff up, you do it, you assemble, you do what you have to do. but I do kind of challenge that as a way, as a, as a thing of like, okay, that’s the momentum that we’ve had for so many years of just doing and doing.

00:52:28:00 – 00:52:52:14

But is that what you have to do? Like, do you need to let that momentum drive your next decision, or can you really be able to take six months and just cool off, like, you know, like do Andy one way tickets, you know, somewhere or, or like get really into a hobby or there other stuff that you will figure out.

00:52:52:14 – 00:53:30:04

And, and I think the last part is, letting like being okay, being a little bit bored for a bit. There’s this interesting Hermosa quote that’s your life is in chapters and chapters like start you. There’s a story to it, and then they end. And then then there’s another chapter. And so maybe this part of the chapter, you know, for someone who is like all right, I want to switch or I want to try something else, is a bartender or being a bit more bored or getting into, you know, whatever you want to be able to do and letting that type of, like letting that fester.

00:53:30:04 – 00:53:53:07

And then I’m sure the chapter will come to an end and then you move on. But that’s been the adjustment, at least for me personally. And just being a little bit better about letting that flow happen versus trying to force it with that momentum from before. like you’re kind of letting life happen to you rather than like you planning for the next thing.

00:53:53:07 – 00:54:12:18

Right? Because it’s not it’s I mean, we are going everyone here and probably listening to this is going against the grain of a societal, what you’re supposed to do anyway. Like, you know, you’re supposed to go to school, you’re supposed to go work for a company, then you’re supposed to work at the company for a long time. Then you’re supposed to retire in 65 and have kids and so on.

00:54:12:20 – 00:54:31:10

Well, guess what? Like you already bended that mold and you took a hard left turn. And like I said, I’m going to start, you know, a print shop or I’m going to, you know, spearhead now or I’m going to do like all these other things and you’re already doing that. So you don’t also have to let’s say you sold the thing or whatever happened.

00:54:31:10 – 00:55:03:13

You also don’t have to go to what you feel. You know, your gut is was saying. And that’s why I think it’s good to just let things simmer for a while. but I didn’t have a plan in place. I like for me, it was more when I was starting to get tired. A little more burnt out is when I started to have these these talks similar, I think, to like what with Andy, I’m getting a sense of, but I wish that I started to think about this at about a million in revenue.

00:55:03:15 – 00:55:22:02

I think like that’s the trigger, I think get about a million revenue. It’s like, all right, you’ve shown that there’s some sort of business you’re meeting, some sort of you have a product or service. People want. You’ve got people that you’re paying for. Things are going well. And that’s, that’s I think that’s the marker. And I’m curious if you guys think that’s too soon or too late.

00:55:22:02 – 00:55:38:14

As far as maybe in ten years, I’d want and write it down, but maybe in ten years, like, this is what I want my day to day. Like I want to be working three hours a day. I want to be three days a week or whatever it is and just have a sense of it, that part of it.

00:55:38:15 – 00:55:54:01

But that goes back to what I was saying earlier, is like, what is the plan like? And I think that’s what we need to kind of real listen a little bit too is like, what is from our knowledge, what is the actual thing that we need to do? Like how do we start an exit plan? And like you said, Bruce, say it’s say $2 million.

00:55:54:01 – 00:56:14:08

You’re like, okay, this is a this is real business. Like this can actually work. What? Yeah. At what point do I start this? How do I start this? Do you consult somebody like, do you have to figure it out on your own? Do you watch YouTube videos like how do you do? So, Dylan, I think the first thing you have to do is you have to design with the end in mind.

00:56:14:10 – 00:56:30:15

And so I like a lot of the advice. I think Bruce is alluding to is like, write out what you want in ten years. I want to own a piece of this company. I want to come in three days a week. I’d like to make a couple hundred grand a year, but I don’t want to be in charge, whatever that might be.

00:56:30:18 – 00:56:51:16

Right? Could be different for each of us. And then it’s like, okay for this to happen. Whatever the life I want, these are the six different options that could potentially happen. So like Andy, you gave us a list of some different types of exit plans. Do you want to go through a couple of them and like refine them a little bit.

00:56:51:18 – 00:57:12:12

We could. So if you want to choose choose them we can do it. let’s just say let’s talk about bringing on. So I’d like a general manager SEO type thing. Well that’s not really. All right. Well, are you saying like you would still own the company, but you would have to hire you would hire a CEO to run it and give them some sort of stake?

00:57:12:12 – 00:57:38:16

Yeah, unless you can. That’s not considered exit, which that’s fine. We can move. I think that’s considered an exit. I think that’s considered a lifestyle change. I don’t think it’s I don’t know, I think you could go do something else. Yeah, but to to Dylan and also Bruce’s point. Dylan, you mentioned something earlier that was like your shop is on autopilot or can be on autopilot.

00:57:38:22 – 00:58:01:23

And are you okay with flatline revenue and, you know, being in the shop every day, if you’re okay with flat line revenue means that basically it’s sort of every day is the same. I mean, yeah, we get in here and we don’t know exactly what’s about to happen, and we put out fires and everything. But what if you feeling like there’s no more personal growth, you know.

00:58:01:23 – 00:58:26:22

And so you’re just not just business growth but personal growth. And so but you also said that, you know, I want to be the person that that takes on this new, you know, technology or that new technology and R&D, these kind of things, you know, and Bruce, you know, you’re looking like you said, you know, you, you, you exited and now you’re, you’re taking some time out and now and maybe you are working on your next thing, but maybe it’s all about personal growth.

00:58:26:22 – 00:58:48:06

And when you write those things down, Steve, you were saying, hey, write down your plan. Like, what do you want to do? What do you want your day to look like? I think it could include still owning your business and just having a CEO, because maybe it should be about personal growth. Maybe that’s the most important thing that we’re missing is just like, personally, am I growing?

00:58:48:06 – 00:59:05:06

And if you’re not, then why are we here? Why? I mean, why are we running trying to make the trains run on time? Maybe we shouldn’t do that anymore. Well, that’s what I would just say is, like when it gets flat, I’m not really super interested because I like the challenge. Every day I’m like, this is a new thing we’re working on.

00:59:05:08 – 00:59:25:13

Even with the with the building, like, okay, we’re going to redo the front or we’re going to add more rooms or we’re going to do this and do that. Like, I love that shit. Like, I love renovating and like building something. It’s Dylan I call that, like playing let’s play. Right when you get to just like hack on new projects, whether it’s a new one doing that.

00:59:25:13 – 00:59:40:24

And I’m just sitting here and it’s just the normal day to day bullshit. That’s where I’m at. That’s when I’m done. Right? So like for me, what you know, I think that I have, you know, probably three years in three years, I don’t know if I’ll be qualified to be CEO. I can’t be saying and I don’t think I want to be.

00:59:41:01 – 01:00:02:04

I hope the business is at a point where we can afford to pay a really, you know, a super great salary to a seasoned executive so that I can just play like I love live activations. Right now I’m working on this like blank stuff in the bookstores. Like, I just want to go play and like, Steven’s in his corner just playing over there and you’re still on the board.

01:00:02:04 – 01:00:23:15

You still see all the numbers, but you just get to do more of what you like to do. So not the day to day bullshit of, yep, you know, whatever. So I think that’s one exit plan is getting the business profitable enough to be able to pay a premium for leadership that you completely trust, so that you can still have a stake in the business, but not be a day to day leader.

01:00:23:15 – 01:00:45:23

I think that’s like there’s one that’s really about 200 K or so. I think once there’s enough, maybe 250, I think you can squeeze someone that’s pretty good in there. Okay. Because because keep in mind they have to grow like that. Their their comp is going to be based on growth. Right. So yeah clarify clarify that 200 K is their salary or is that your revenue.

01:00:46:00 – 01:01:09:12

What do you mean 200 games salary probably for a season. President or executive usually. Yeah I think I think just someone that’s competent enough that can step in and solve the problems like you would, and then be also incentivized and bonus based on additional profitability that they bring in at the end of the year. And that that I would imagine someone would be around 200 to 250 K.

01:01:09:12 – 01:01:31:10

So you’d need that buffer in there. Yeah. can we talk about a merger with another shop or another business? How might that work? That’s what we were talking about earlier, is kind of fitting with the SARS and the Alpha thing. So okay, I’m gonna ask a personal question, like doing any. Have you ever thought about putting your businesses together and having.

01:01:31:10 – 01:01:50:24

Sure, we talk about it all the time, but okay. So like let’s just say now really, you really only merge if you want an end result. Like maybe one business is not profitable and struggling. One business is better at the other. They’re strengths, weaknesses, and there’s a good fit. Why would a shop merge? What would it take to merge?

01:01:50:24 – 01:02:15:00

What are the things that go through your head for a merger to actually go through? And there have been some in our industry recently, but I don’t know. Andy, what do you think of those? I think a merger makes sense. for me and some in some ways, I mean, I would like it to be, I think, Dylan, I think it would be challenging for upstate in shirking the mergers because of our location.

01:02:15:00 – 01:02:39:18

So I think if I’m looking, I’m looking at someone in my close, in my region, let’s say somebody that could be here, you know, that be present. So if I’m merging, I’m looking to exit because that’s what we’re talking about. I’m looking to remove myself more. I mean, yeah, maybe at some capacity more limited capacity. I’m playing or doing other things or I’m here if, if something escalates or whatever that is.

01:02:39:20 – 01:03:03:12

But I think that, if I’m looking to exit, then a merger can make sense. you know, because then what? Then you still get that revenue stream, you merge with somebody that’s aligned with your values, whether it’s your team and also your leadership. And then, you cross your fingers and hope that you don’t hate each other in, like, a couple months.

01:03:03:12 – 01:03:22:11

I guess. You know, I can I think that, like, what is a merger versus then you just selling, I guess is the. Well I in my opinion we’ve seen it. We have friends. I’ve obviously done it, but I’ve seen other shops that do it. And I talked to them on the side about these kinds of things. And sometimes it’s fucking awful.

01:03:22:16 – 01:03:50:00

Like, I can tell that this was not a good idea or other times it works out really well. And I think the times it works out really well is when, like Andy was saying, like one of the shops is lacking. So if, you know, say, and this is a true statement or whatever, but I’m just saying, like if say, me and Andy merge and Andy was really good at production, like, I know Andy’s good at production because he goes out in the shop and he prints and he knows how to run the press, he knows how to do all the shit, but he fucking hates sales.

01:03:50:02 – 01:04:09:15

He hates marketing, he hates the idea of doing new things. He just wants to fucking print awesome shirts. He’s really good at that. So say we merged and that would be like, okay, my focus is going to be on sales and marketing and like doing that kind of thing. And Andy is just going to focus on production, and we both come to an agreement that I’m not going to step on your toes and you’re like, I have final say with marketing.

01:04:09:15 – 01:04:27:18

He has final say with production. And then that’s what we do. We stay the fuck out of each other’s hair and we run the company and we and we grow awesome because we’re both really good at those things. But what you’re doing is the shared resources is how you’re getting ultra profitable, right? Right. Before you go ahead. It’s it’s not a it’s not it’s a win win.

01:04:27:18 – 01:04:50:22

And it’s not just one plus one is two. It’s one plus one is three because you exponentially, grow in other words. And so you become more than just the two of you. You become more than that. Right? Like my production levels up because Andy steps in and crushes with my production and his production. And I come in and I go to Shirt Kong and I say that we’re going to do all this awesome, crazy marketing stuff now.

01:04:50:22 – 01:05:08:12

And then their thing grows again, that this is all fake. But that’s how I would see it working really well. But what I see sometimes is like two shops that are in town together and they’re like, oh, let’s just get together. And then there’s just two people butting heads because they all do the same shit. Well, I think there’s also like, what kind of debt do you carry?

01:05:08:14 – 01:05:28:24

Who’s got equipment loans. Right. Like there has to be sometimes there’s kind of be the bigger shop, probably acquiring the smaller shop. And are they doing an asset sale or are they getting them out of a bind? I think that might be maybe what happens more and more is like, I’m okay at this, but I’d rather just do it with this other company, right?

01:05:29:00 – 01:05:48:13

Can you guys come save me a little bit? Like, I would love just a paycheck. Like, I want to keep doing this. I just want a paycheck. And I don’t want to have to worry about everything all the time. Yeah. Do you think that shops. I think I’ll make a statement more and more. Today’s shops are open to merge with others because they’re sick of not making a paycheck or not making a real living.

01:05:48:13 – 01:06:18:19

Like this is what I was in business for. How much do you think of it as pride? Like, my pride is going to be hurt if, you know, upstate turns into Sharekhan. You mean you’d be sure to? I I’ve seen that before, too. Where I have friends with the shop and then they come on hard times or whatever, and I can tell to paycheck thing and then they merge with another shop, and then it’s all optics of, oh, we merged and two awesome forces are coming together and we’re going to be one great print shop.

01:06:18:19 – 01:06:34:19

Now and all these other things. And then you hear about a month later or two months later that, that the other owner that was having a hard time with paycheck now doesn’t work there and it’s gone and all this other stuff, and it’s kind of like, oh, well, they just wanted to look good at both companies got together and now it’s this mega company.

01:06:34:19 – 01:07:00:06

But really the other one kind of like saved their ass and brought them in. And. Whatever it was and even better, other exit plans. What comes to mind? Succession. So do you, do you have kids? You know, and if you don’t go make some, there you go. You know, like. And. Bruce. Get busy. I think that.

01:07:00:08 – 01:07:25:11

Yeah. So why not? I mean, you can have. I think that’s really natural. I think a lot of people, I think that’s in the back of a lot of people’s minds. If you have three kids and one of them is really interested and in the business, and you think that they’re maturing well and you want to leave it, this family business, if that’s what you’re going to call it, and leave it to your son or daughter.

01:07:25:13 – 01:07:43:23

That sure is great, right? Because you can probably, you’re probably going to finance or you’re not. You are. But your your business is going to is going to finance it. So in other words, like the your son or daughter is, you know, you agree to terms that they take less every year for ten years than you take you continue to take a lot of the profit until it’s paid off.

01:07:43:23 – 01:08:07:21

And it’s just they never it’s never out of pocket for the son or daughter. It’s out of the business revenue. And so it’s succession. I mean, I think that’s pretty common. And I think that type of seller finance is more and more common. Right. Like no one’s going to give you some crazy lump sum for your company and walk away like your business has to be some crazy technology that’s super stable to just get all this money upfront.

01:08:07:23 – 01:08:28:24

I think it’s very common for you to maybe get a small amount of money, and then the business is going to pay you for the next five years a certain amount and earn out. Yeah. And and earn out. Yeah. And so whether it’s succession planning or an earn out you probably for a small business are not getting crazy cash upfront.

01:08:29:03 – 01:08:48:07

Right. No differently than your kid would give you a lot of cash upfront. I just don’t. Do you guys see it happening? I don’t know I don’t know. I think that’s like the. It’s like the easy, easy way out one. Like you’re just giving it to your kid to give it to your kid and you’re not expecting much.

01:08:48:07 – 01:09:04:02

So my business partner Jed, at the time, I was 22, and he had to put a plan together for me to buy into the company. And so he’s like, okay, kid, how much money do you have right now? And I was like, I got 30 grand from selling merch in college. I was like, okay, give me that. that’s a third of the third of the equipment.

01:09:04:02 – 01:09:22:04

Sweet. now the goodwill, every year the business is going to pay me and the other partner, and you’ll just miss out on that dividend. And, the first year, it’s only me. $2,000 a person. Next year, nearly $8,000 a person. The third year, it’ll be 16,000. By the fifth or sixth year, it’ll be 30 or 40 grand a person.

01:09:22:04 – 01:09:44:04

But the business should be much bigger and it’ll sweat it off. Right. And so there are really unique ways to structure exits. and you can get pretty like there’s pretty cool ways to do it so that it doesn’t hurt the company. That’s one way. Andy, have you heard of any others or Bruce or Dylan? that’s a great way.

01:09:44:06 – 01:10:04:13

That’s a huge thank you. Jen swisher yeah, that’s a really clean way. I guess the the only difficulty is if the business can’t pay for that. So like the longer the term is. So let’s say you’re three years out. You’re five years out. Well, that’s a long time in the future. You don’t quite know what may happen at year 4 or 5.

01:10:04:13 – 01:10:25:17

And so you are risking that, you know, loan work all it of getting it back versus and maybe that just means a preference is capped at three years. So like Steven just knew what campus was going to become that. So you can. Yeah. No. I, I would love to. My business partner owns a lot of other companies, like just a lame business as many warehouses like electrician companies.

01:10:25:17 – 01:10:42:10

And he’s like, look, he takes a lot of blue collar people in a business. And he’s like, no one has money. So I have to make a way to pass for them, to be able to afford this. So like, I, you know, I give a lot of credit to him for being able to do that, but he basically made it so that I didn’t have to feel any of it.

01:10:42:11 – 01:11:03:22

and he’s like, you know, if you go off the deep end, whatever. Right. so I don’t know, I don’t take much credit for that. That was all him. Sorry, I interrupted. I think that that earnout I think you’re right. I think you probably have to, be cautious because, you know, there’s increased risk every year you add to that term.

01:11:03:24 – 01:11:21:19

You know, when we were talking about getting hit by a bus, I mean, that can happen. And so, you know, what happens if they default? What happens if they just decide not to pay you, you know, the business, the economy out of their can, something out of their control. you know, the economy crashes, the pandemic was a pandemic.

01:11:21:23 – 01:11:52:12

And next thing you know, they can’t make payment. It defaults. It’s yours again. And then what? You know, and so, you know, there’s there’s risk and but but I think you’re right in saying that you’re I think you are I think optimistically you would hope for half down. so whatever you’re whatever you want to sell your shop for, an optimistic number would be to get half.

01:11:52:14 – 01:12:07:12

You know, I think maybe that’s to be a comfortable spot because in your end, you know, to rationalize it, you’re like, okay, well, you know, I have half if I do have to come rescue it in a year or three or whatever that might be. If the if it defaults, then, you know, I have half, I have half of it.

01:12:07:14 – 01:12:24:22

And then I had some payments, whatever that number comes to you and then I can come in and I can I guess I could liquidated and just be done and gone or I can try and get it going again. And so if you have energy for that, that is, you know, and if you’re not already working and doing something else, if you’re in Barbados, you’re gonna have to fly back to upstate New York.

01:12:24:24 – 01:12:48:16

What does that mean? You know, and so I think it gets complicated. You know, I think you can still go back to upstate New York from where I was gonna be playing basketball on Barbados. yeah. the more like we say we use this term called, like, how sticky is your business, right? Returning customers, unique technology specific things that you can look at and say, this can’t be done anywhere else.

01:12:48:16 – 01:13:12:21

Or they have these customers locked in on a licensing deal. Those are things that are going to demand more upfront than just things that are commoditized. Like, I don’t have a lot of returning customers or just new customers that come in and just like PTO here and there. So I think it’s also really important to know you want to make your business as sticky as possible, so that the next person taking it over sees value in it.

01:13:12:23 – 01:13:32:17

I’m curious if you’ve ever thought about, exit by divesting. So selling off a piece of the company that does a specific thing, but holding on to a certain part? Do you think this could work in our industry? I think it would work for somebody like you. Really, guys, where they took on Broder, and then they got rid of prime.

01:13:32:19 – 01:13:54:05

But could you sell off your production facility, Dylan, and just broker dandy? Yeah. You could. I mean, I don’t see why not. And I think a lot of people might enjoy that, you know, like, because their stuff would be done well. Oh, yeah. They’d be like, I just mean, it would be like, I don’t have to fucking deal with the production part anymore.

01:13:54:05 – 01:14:11:05

Like, I again, it could be like, I’m really good at sales. and then say the other half of your company kind of wax and be like, all right, well, I’m going to sell this off, sell off all the equipment, this and that, and then I’ll just focus on the sales part.

01:14:11:07 – 01:14:36:20

I mean, it’s doable. It’s just in my case it would be hard because I would I would just have to sell the building as well. And then I would just go in the office somewhere would be, no point me having this whole building just to do sales out of. yeah. The conclusion is giving that getting profitable enough where it supports you, gives you so much flexibility to really think this through more or whether or not you want to go down the path.

01:14:36:22 – 01:14:59:07

But I think we I think we have to talk about the last option and just fuck it and burn it down, which is happening right now. Collect the insurance laws. I think, yes. So if we could divest our embroidery and so we have an embroidery division and I could sell it, it’s a small percentage compared to, our screen printing.

01:14:59:07 – 01:15:18:15

But if I could eliminate, then for one, I could. I guess I could get some, income or I get some, some money, right. For, for selling it, and then I can eliminate some risk or liability or whatever and just not do that and then just outsource that. And so we wouldn’t have to worry about that space. We could use that space for something else.

01:15:18:15 – 01:15:34:12

And so yeah, we could divest I think a lot of companies could, they could sell off certain divisions. I don’t know what it’s worth. And that, you know, like if you have somebody in town that’s not to tell you virgin embroidery in the first place. It is actually. Yeah. So, I how we got our embroidery was Bass pro.

01:15:34:14 – 01:15:53:13

a bass pro shop near us was divesting. They were selling off their embroidery department inside of a bass pro and so they called us. And, I think that, you know, so we could do the same thing. I don’t think it would be. I think the value would be low. I like it, I like it with shirt calling.

01:15:53:13 – 01:16:10:07

You know, I think it’s important because it’s a nice IT pair as well. And so I don’t know that it would be a smart move. It would have to want the hard products to you Stephen saying it’s not you’re not just selling off your embroidery equipment. You’re selling the customers that come with your embroidery. Yeah, yeah. I mean I think about that a lot.

01:16:10:07 – 01:16:28:18

Like our businesses put in different segments like mostly Greek versus collegiate licensing and this and I l’espace and we run them in their own silos for that reason because we don’t know what the future might hold. There might be a company that really wants our Greek business or, you know, sports company that says we don’t care about this side of the business or whatever.

01:16:28:18 – 01:16:49:19

So it’s interesting to think about your business as different segments and verticals and sectors. Maybe you have a team that does really good marketing and agency work, like Golden, Golden Boys, you know, that’s its own production company and a printing company. Right. okay. What about selling to employees either like a management buyout, employee stock option, stock ownership plan?

01:16:49:21 – 01:17:08:18

I’ve. I haven’t seen this done. I’ve only heard of, like, one in our industry. Parents. Have you guys thought about this or like, Dylan, have you thought about this because you have such a good group? I have thought about this. And I thought if I was to leave, say I wanted to leave, I don’t know, two years from now or something, but the companies still are angry.

01:17:08:18 – 01:17:26:14

And my and I wanted to do it because I wanted to move to Barbados and play basketball. I could sell to one of my best friends that is a manager here and just be like, all right, it’s your company now, whatever. But I think if I was to do that, I know they wouldn’t be able to just come up with the number that I wanted for the company.

01:17:26:16 – 01:17:42:08

I would more be like like Andy said, like it’d be cool if, like, you went out, got a loan, gave me a good chunk, and then I just got a paycheck for the rest of my life, or I got, you know, buy me out in ten years or something. Like, I think that’s how I would do it. And I’d be like, all right, I’m going to go do a new thing.

01:17:42:08 – 01:18:08:07

You guys keep running upstate. So yeah. I’ve definitely thought of that before. That’s like my one anyway. Ever. One employee though, one key, a couple, like one key employee. 1 or 2 probably. Yeah. so there’s this thing called an Esop, which is you can actually sell the business. And Andy gave us this selling the business to employees through a trust, allowing them to become owners over time.

01:18:08:09 – 01:18:23:20

and so essentially, it’s like every employee that works there owns a piece of the company, right? Is that how it works? Andy? I don’t know the full, exactly how it works, but I think you’re describing it well. And like you said, parent does that. And he was on an episode. We talked about that a little bit.

01:18:23:22 – 01:18:46:08

Yeah. it was super successful. Mitch was the number one employee or salesperson or something there. And then they, the owners sold it back to the employees and then appointed Mitch, the president of the Isa, up. It’s like a crazy way in which it’s structured. But then they have a board and, you know, like he’s an employee of the people of the company and they’re all tied into profitability.

01:18:46:08 – 01:19:07:10

And if there’s earnings or profit sharing, that’s super cool. I really like it. I mean, I mean, they’re theory, but my gosh, I mean, Dylan, how many orders they run 20 hours a day, probably 30 orders. It’s up in Michigan. It’s the most beautiful shop appearance. Massive. Yeah. Versus like, I haven’t heard of this one. You know, it’s so good that just.

01:19:07:11 – 01:19:33:12

I just can’t imagine, like, splitting it up and maybe, maybe it is just like. You’re right. A key person is majority owner or all, and which is kind of just selling it to someone that you just happen to know because they are willing to take it over. But gosh, like splitting it up because the problem I see is just not a not everyone cares about some sort of like equity in the business.

01:19:33:12 – 01:19:56:18

So like some people just want a good paycheck and to maximize that. And then others are like they’re not an owner. Like they’re, they’re they don’t have as much of an owner mentality. And that is totally cool that like, I think every business needs that, that, that sort of balance of it. So I’d be curious to know how is that actually structured.

01:19:56:18 – 01:20:18:10

Was it, you know, I think to that guy or what? I think the big thing that Mitch was saying too, is that the huge part of that everyone’s got ownership is that they’re, they’re they’re all invested, like their turnover is so low because everybody there has a stake for the most part. It’s not like it’s random, just employees, you know, it’s not like just some dude just got hired and he’s like, oh, fuck the shit.

01:20:18:10 – 01:20:34:21

Like, now you have to like, vest over time, Bruce. Like, there’s a whole system of, you know, how long you’ve been in there. So if they leave, maybe it goes back into a pool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. but you could also do something where it’s partially employee owned, where you could sell 50. You could sell 49% back to your employees.

01:20:34:23 – 01:20:56:19

And, you know, somehow you could get a bank to finance it if your business is profitable. I think you would create a board structure that has boats and, you know, powers that be that do it all. But it’s not unreasonable for companies to do that. Is that similar to, like, what, a, like a law firm is where, you know, there’s like part where you make your own stuff and there’s there’s profit sharing to all the benefits.

01:20:56:19 – 01:21:20:17

That’s what I see on TV shows. I just watch suits. That’s the only thing I know about lawyers. It’s great. Steven. Steven, do you, can we move to mental challenges when selling a business? Yes. And I know that, we might get a little emo here, but I think it’s important. I asked ChatGPT this question, and it came up with some good stuff.

01:21:20:17 – 01:21:46:15

And so there’s the number one that’s on there is emotional attachment. And so, you know, we celebrated 15 years, here at your Kong last weekend. When I say we, I meant I did. And so you know I would you do in your office. I actually came in and it was a Saturday and we were we ran our first overtime not mandatory optional overtime Saturday.

01:21:46:15 – 01:22:19:16

And we came in and I actually I was telling Dylan that that I, I did I was the first one here. It felt really good and I did and I was on a press for a little bit and popped a screen. yeah. It’s just like old times, right? Nostalgia. So I think that, here’s the thing. Like, I came up with this name, I, as we grew and we scaled, I painstakingly chose every single expansion down to, like, the boards where certain, like, plywood went and why.

01:22:19:18 – 01:22:40:00

And the colors of things. And, esthetically, I wanted to I wanted to work in a spot that felt good to be in. And so, like, those decisions were important to me and and they were they were my decisions. And this is something that I built. And now. I go away and this Instagram is mine. This name is it mine to build it.

01:22:40:00 – 01:23:05:05

Nothing’s mine. It’s like, you know, they say you’re forgotten about in 30 days. Bruce, I didn’t forget about you. I still remember, you and, that’s a weird thought that, a few weeks from now. Like, if I sold this place today, a few weeks from now, there’s a new boss, and there’s. It’s not mine, you know, and I have this emotional attachment to this place, and that’s who am I when I hang out with my friends, they’re like, It’s Andy shirking.

01:23:05:05 – 01:23:28:10

Because no, it’s not. Actually it’s not, you know, it’s I have a it’s Andy Rudman, I have a what’s a Rudman? I have a tattoo right here of, of, of this place. And so I guess I it’s pretty strange to think about that. Sure. Come on. I yeah, I have an example of this. The guy that I bought my building off from had it.

01:23:28:10 – 01:23:52:20

Same kind of thing. Like from younger age grew it. He was known in town for being half the guy who ran the Sportsman’s den. This this place sold guns, ammo. The actual shop was an archery range. this was like his thing for forever. It was his identity, the whole thing. He got, you know, pretty damn old and, you know, gave me a handshake deal.

01:23:52:20 – 01:24:13:08

Saw me as, like, a young guy who kind of wanted to do the same thing he did, like, grow a business in town and did this whole thing again. Handshake. Fucking one of the best things that ever happened to me. but he refuses to come here. He refuses to come in. He never wants. He’s like. I was so like, I see him all the like once in a while, drive by or something.

01:24:13:08 – 01:24:31:17

And I’m always like, how do you want to come in and like, see what we’ve done? Like, we’ve literally remodeled the whole office, like all this other stuff. He’s just like, can’t do it. No, don’t, don’t even, like literally since he sold it. Since he sold it, he is now he has not stepped foot in this building. And you can’t be mad at him for that, right?

01:24:31:18 – 01:24:50:03

Like, not at all. I just I know you doesn’t want to see it in a different way. Yeah. So we bought out one of my business partners, and it was his family’s business. He grew up in the place, and, when he left, it was definitely, like, super hard for him. And if you will come back once a year for five minutes, that’s it.

01:24:50:05 – 01:25:18:18

Like, stays at an arm’s distance because it’s your life, you know? Right. I think it’s like, how do you if you identify that closely with your business? It almost could be a little bit of a red flag. is it a problem? That’s a good question. I mean, I okay, we’ll go emo here. I saw blink 182 on Sunday so I can go really emotional life into it was awesome.

01:25:18:20 – 01:25:43:07

different approach. But, about four years ago, I started therapy specifically with one thing to unidentified with the business because campus was Steven and Steven was Campus Inc, and I was burning myself out from it and severely depressed by it. And so now Campus Inc is this place I work at that I love. That’s it, and I own it.

01:25:43:09 – 01:26:08:24

I’m curious, Andy, and your year of back things have you detach from. Sure. Calm a little bit. Definitely. in a lot of ways, yeah. I mean, it put a whole new perspective on things, but not to the extent of, I think what you just said. I just started therapy. I’ve only been four times, and we’re just getting to know each other.

01:26:09:01 – 01:26:12:08

And you know what?

01:26:12:10 – 01:26:36:14

I also, I go there and it’s on the ninth floor, and I walk into her office, and the vibe is awesome. You know, she has these windows and you can see right out over the city and there’s a couch and it’s very chill. And I and I thought to myself, you know, I could do this. Like I just talked to somebody, you know, for an hour.

01:26:36:16 – 01:26:53:09

And I do most of the talking right now. It’s pretty weird. And so like, you know, you talk about being a bartender, but, it’s sort of like a bartender, I think by a lot of bartenders are probably therapists. so I don’t know. I think that.

01:26:53:11 – 01:27:09:06

you know, yes, I’ve detached in some ways. And I think that’s how I started to was how I started detached from, from qigong. Was that I was like, okay, I need to be able to leave here and not even be in this shop for one day. And then I was like, okay, well, I need to be able to leave here for one week.

01:27:09:06 – 01:27:27:00

And then I changed it to two weeks, and then a month. And I think that those are little tests, right. Can I go away for one week and does the shop run? And those are little tests to find out if you have the right people in place. And so I was able to fortunately, you know, be gone for a while because I had to recover from surgery and, and it worked.

01:27:27:02 – 01:27:48:24

and so I’ve changed. I’m not here as much anymore, you know. So the question is, yeah, I’ve detached, but not so much emotionally. I mean, yes, I’m not here as much, but I’m still emotionally very detached. I mean, this is my place. I have control. I mean, that’s one of the things that we probably like about being a founder or a business owner is controlling certain things.

01:27:48:24 – 01:28:09:15

We get to where responsible for a lot of things. And that’s one of the things that ChatGPT came up with is loss of control. So when you when you sell your business, you transition from being in control of a business to stepping back. And that can be difficult. And so you sort of struggle with this idea of what am I controlling?

01:28:09:15 – 01:28:28:15

I guess you can control, like your house maybe, or something, but it’s so different. You know, I feel like the direction of the lines on the lawn I had that the other day, it was like, again, like, it’s me and say, Bill and Brian or whatever. And like, best friends worked here for forever. I trust them to do anything.

01:28:28:17 – 01:28:42:12

but I’m the boss, like, I, I make the decisions. I say, this is what we’re going to do. Whatever. Bill recently bought a house in his basement. We’re we’re going to tear it out like it’s lath and plaster. We’re going to tear it out. He wants to put a bedroom down there, and we, me and Brian just offered to help him.

01:28:42:12 – 01:29:00:06

Like, obviously friends, that’s what we do. But I found myself the entire time and I had to apologize to them at the end. I found myself the entire time be like, Brian, why don’t you go tear that wall down and like, Bill, grab some bags over here and let’s do this. And like, the whole time I was, like, directing them on how to do shit next time.

01:29:00:12 – 01:29:18:01

At the end of it, I was like, guys, I am sorry. Like I did not like I did. I caught myself like halfway through this being like, I’m telling you guys what to do. Like what the fuck? Like I’m just so used to doing that and like, I have to keep stopping myself. Be like, this is not my house.

01:29:18:01 – 01:29:32:20

This is not my thing. Like, I need to just be the helper and not like, oh, you do this. You do this like, let’s do this. This is the plan. This is how you’re going to structure this room. This is what we’re going to do, like part life. And number one, I just I had to be like, I have to stop talking.

01:29:32:22 – 01:29:59:19

Quick story is I, years ago lived in a condo and we had an HOA, and, they needed somebody to be president. And I mistakenly, said, okay. And they elected me in a meeting, and it was like, not a really big formal election or anything, but they just said, you’re the guy. And I said, okay. And I took it on, and it’s a two year term, and I thought I did a good job, and that’s all you can be is two years.

01:29:59:19 – 01:30:19:02

And then they decided they’re like, they changed the amended our whatever HOA Constitution is so that I could run. I could be it again because nobody wanted to be it. Why? Because it’s a thankless job. And, you know, I actually some of the neighbors all of a sudden didn’t like me anymore because I was boss. I was boss of my neighborhood.

01:30:19:02 – 01:30:37:00

I guess, if you want to call it, it was a condo, but I was still boss of that place, and I and I realized that, you know, I didn’t want to be like, I was boss here. And when I left here, I don’t want to be boss. You know? I just wanted to be, like, one of the people that are pissed at the fucking president of the HOA.

01:30:37:01 – 01:30:53:12

Like, fuck you. You know, like, I didn’t want to be the guy that people are complaining to. Like, I had people upset because somebody’s dogs are barking and I’m like, I don’t know what to do. Like it’s not, you know, that’s your problem and it’s HOA president like nothing. Oh, did you have a little, do you have a bobble head or a mall cop?

01:30:53:12 – 01:31:12:13

Like a Segway I should have. Would you mind? yeah. Fucking down the shrubs if you want. There. Yeah. Boots and a badge and fucking went door to door. So I guess my point to that is, is that, you know, I think I think once I do something else, I probably won’t be in control. I don’t want to be.

01:31:12:13 – 01:31:34:10

I don’t want to have that. I think I want to be out of control. Yeah. when you have so much power in control, sometimes your defense mechanism is to actually give it up in other in other spaces. Right. And so, like, I always think whatever I’m going to do next, I’m not going to be the number one person, I will be two or 3 or 4, you know, like I’ve had a guy that nights.

01:31:34:12 – 01:31:59:06

Bruce, would you actually be the why I said number four? Yeah. Would you, would you would you be number one? this year and I, I actually do think I would move, if I was active in it though. So this is the other question, right? Like if you wanted to poke around, do something again, like would you want to be actively the person?

01:31:59:08 – 01:32:20:12

And if so, I think, yes, like I did enjoy being the point person to make the decisions. But if not, because I went through this exercise to really craft like how I want to spend my time, and if not, then I would have to have someone that is able to make the decisions that I trusted. And I think that’s where I lean towards.

01:32:20:12 – 01:32:26:24

Actually more so than the former.

01:32:27:01 – 01:32:46:05

All right. I do want to finish this off with the last thing, and I mentioned it before, but burn it the fuck down today. If you were like, I’m done with this, I’m over it. What do you do? Do you, do you just say, screw the book of business to sell just the book of business. Do you sell fire equipment, a fire sale, the equipment off.

01:32:46:05 – 01:33:05:20

Like how does how do you go about doing that to figures like I’m done. I don’t want to deal with this. Don’t want to do it. You talk to a broker right? What do you do? I, I also respect that decision. I think that you I there’s only one problem I have with that. And that is your team.

01:33:05:20 – 01:33:33:16

I think that, I would have to give everybody fair warning. And also, a bridge or something to another shop here for that so that they’re not all unemployed. I think smaller shops probably can get away with this much easier. but I like that idea. There’s this artist I, I once heard of that had this whole collection of art, and they were done with that phase of art, and they actually put it in a pile and burned it.

01:33:33:18 – 01:33:50:05

They didn’t even sell it. They just burned their art. And they said, you know, I don’t care. I don’t care about the money from this place. I’m over it. I don’t want to do that again. There’s musicians that I mean, Robert Plant walked away from LED Zeppelin because he never wanted to play those songs again. He’s like, I played these songs that 100,000 times.

01:33:50:10 – 01:34:15:21

Talk about blink 182. I mean, Tom did the same thing. He’s back. But for a while there, he was like, you know, I can’t go to another stadium and play that fucking song I wrote when I was 21. You know, I just don’t. I’m, I’m 40 something now. I don’t want to do that anymore. And so I think that there’s something to burning it down like the, the notion of that anyway was like the discussion that we had of just like, you don’t want to see someone else take your name and do something totally different with it.

01:34:15:23 – 01:34:37:18

so you’d rather burn it down and let someone tried to do that? Yeah. And then let them run it into the ground, say they do some horrible cancel culture thing, and then you’re like, cool. Sure. Kong’s associated with this for forever. Yeah. So I think, Andy, the one thing that you said there is like, I’d have to have something for my employees or I’d have to figure out, like the succession planning for it.

01:34:37:20 – 01:35:07:18

While I do think that is insanely important, you as a business owner are super unselfish most of the time. You’re like, rarely are we ever selfish. and I think in this one moment you have to be super selfish and say, like, what makes me okay? What makes me happy? And I know that there will be unintended consequences from this or unintended negative impact from this, and that might harm people.

01:35:07:20 – 01:35:38:04

But I have to do what’s best for me. And so I think what I hate seeing shops do is carry care. So much burden to keep staff on, or to buy equipment or to do all these things for pride purposes. And they bury themselves into something they can’t dig themselves out of. And so like if you have to lay people off, yeah, it sucks, but you’re doing it for, for you because you have to protect yourself first.

01:35:38:07 – 01:35:55:06

Right? And I think we can’t always be that hero. It’s okay if you had to shut your doors like, yeah, will they be unemployed for a little bit. Yeah. But they’re going to get back up and they’re going to be fine. They’ll figure it out. So like I don’t know I kind of disagree there that like you have to really take that onus on yourself.

01:35:55:06 – 01:36:18:23

Obviously you want to do Best Buy it. But ultimately what’s important. So the same the profit profit. First author when he was speaking to us is that he says to everyone in the room who goes in your business, who is the most important employee? And he calls on someone and they’re like, oh, this guy Ron, you know, he’s so, you know, in a couple times.

01:36:18:23 – 01:36:46:03

And then he’s like, you’re all wrong. It’s you as the owner. And so that’s the person who should be paid first and taken care of first. which is exactly what you’re saying. But also, yeah, you’re right. It is kind of hard to think that through, especially if you’re as unselfish as Andy. I don’t know about Dylan, but yeah, I don’t, I don’t know, but I worry less on the drywall.

01:36:46:05 – 01:37:09:18

I, I, I just, I’m like, I had to step away from all that stuff, like, I think you’re saying as far as, like identifying with the business and the employees and all this other stuff. And like, I’ve slowly over the years, like, step back and back and back into my own role. But like obviously it used to be known as Dylan and all this other stuff, and it is locally and it is like in our just like industry circles and shows and all this other stuff.

01:37:09:18 – 01:37:38:16

But like, realistically, all the new people that come here know the company is to the customer service person they talk to or just as a brand, not as me. so I kind of have managers now. All the do all hiring, firing because I am the worst at that. We’ve talked about this on this before where like I, I, I would feel like if I was to do the burn it down method, I would personally try to get every single person here another job term, like I would go door to door to be like, oh, you want to work at this place?

01:37:38:16 – 01:37:54:04

I’m going in and be like, hey, you need to hire this person. They’re great. And fucking like, I feel like I would have to do that. I couldn’t just be like, hey guys, here’s a 30 day notice, of say, it’s gone. Figure it the fuck out. All right. That’s fair. Yeah. That’s fair, I don’t think I think both of those can be true.

01:37:54:05 – 01:38:21:06

Like, I think what you said and what Steven said. Right. But you shouldn’t, like, carry an uncertain like crazy amount of debt or take out loans just to like, oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah. Like you need to be selfish. Yeah. And I’m just all done that, I’m sure, where we’ve all foregone some sort of salary or, you know, or passed on something to pay ourselves instead of putting it either into the business somehow or towards the team first.

01:38:21:08 – 01:38:42:02

You know, it’s really funny. I there’s been times at campus where I’ve stopped paying myself, and that sucks. It’s like not a fun feeling where you’re like, I just won’t pay myself rent or payroll this month. Like, that sucks. And we kind of do that without blinking. Sometimes when our employees or like our leadership team wants to do something and they want to spend on it, I’ll just be like, all right, are we all good?

01:38:42:02 – 01:39:02:18

Just we’ll just skip next week. We’ll just I’ll skip. I’ll just skip it on gusto and then like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, we didn’t we didn’t mean that. And I’m like, okay. Like, you know, we take the business to such different degrees than the people we employ. So I think we should also be slightly selfish about it. I don’t know, I would never do that, but it’s just kind of a funny example.

01:39:02:18 – 01:39:33:18

I always throw up anyways. Andy, do you want to kind of summarize this? no. Andy GPT let’s go. Sure. I mean, you touched on this, what is an exit plan? I think we made a really good clear argument that you should have one. you know, even if, it does correlate somewhat to the age of your business or maybe even the age of you.

01:39:33:20 – 01:39:54:18

You know, I think that it’s a really good idea, to have a plan in place because, you know, you may be hit by a bus. Who knows? And, I think the probably we also established that most, most shops don’t because like you said, Dylan, at the beginning, that we had I y and we we start I mean, there was just me.

01:39:54:24 – 01:40:23:10

So 15 years ago on a Saturday, well, probably wasn’t a Saturday, but, 15 years ago was just me. And then Joanne started here a week later and there was two of us. And so there wasn’t always a bunch of us. And I had no plan in place to exit. It was just I was just trying to just to start to begin, you know, and so, I think that’s probably, probably why and I think it is healthy to have have one in place.

01:40:23:10 – 01:40:45:01

So yeah, I think there’s multiple there’s endless ways to do so. But I do really like what Steven said earlier. It’s just kind of like I think Bruce said to just like write down where you want to be in ten years. Like, how do you want to do it? And then slowly figure that out over those five, ten years or whatever it is and that really like, again, I have no plan.

01:40:45:01 – 01:41:03:17

And really, this episode is really making me want to write down, I guess, what my true goals are so that I can start working towards them instead of waiting till the last minute and be like, oh fuck, who’s going to buy this shit? is this shop that you run every day taking a toll on you? Is it taking a toll on your family?

01:41:03:19 – 01:41:21:24

Is it causing increased cortisol levels, your blood pressure high? Do you ever get to do anything you want to do? Do you miss out on and sacrifice like tons of opportunity? Do you work, you know, 100 hours a week, every single day like I used to? I mean, we we were open every day. Like I was just trying to survive.

01:41:21:24 – 01:41:39:18

I mean, is that is it all worth it in the end? Like, maybe not. And so maybe you just need to be number four. Maybe you need to step away. What did you just say? Maybe not. And then have chat apps. Or maybe that was that. Honestly, that should be the intro that we cut into that. That’s that should be the intro I think.

01:41:39:20 – 01:42:02:12

there are so many. So I think since we recorded these last couple of episodes, we did one with Cole and which I thought was was fabulous for him to be vulnerable and share this. I’ve gotten a ton of people, like reaching out, don’t take shame in being vulnerable and knowing that, like, my business isn’t profitable today, or I’m struggling with this because I think, like, we’re all in it together.

01:42:02:14 – 01:42:20:17

I think if we all got to look at each other’s numbers every day, our conversations would change completely. But we are all in this together. You are not alone, and there’s so many resources out there to help for transition planning, succession planning, exit strategies, all that stuff. and it’s okay to talk about it. It’s not taboo.

01:42:20:19 – 01:42:49:11

So, yeah, that’s all I got today. We’ll do this again next year. Oh, we’re all going. We’re all excited. Whatever. Andy has thoughts and just text fires off thoughts. Yeah, we get some. Bruce and I do want to say real quick though, I do feel like off of what Steven said, I do feel like if you’re in a spot where you do feel like you’re alone or you feel like your business is sucking in some way, like, do reach out to people because you might be able to get it fixed.

01:42:49:13 – 01:43:08:17

You might have someone help you get through that problem, and then your business continues and is awesome. Like, I feel like too many people get lost in a certain way and they’re like, well, fuck it, it’s gone because they don’t reach out. Like, think of all the things that we figure out together in our text groups or whatever, or how we get through things, or we say shit that’s going wrong.

01:43:08:17 – 01:43:21:13

And then it’s like, well, actually, do you think about this and let me put you in contact with this person and so on. And so, like, I think you should reach out one way or another to feel like if it’s a good time to get out, or if it’s a good time to just pivot and do something different.

01:43:21:15 – 01:43:48:01

Yeah, these are great topics, especially because so many things are covered or like how great things are. And so, to showcase the other sides are that’s powerful. Dylan, my guy Andy, Steven, Bruce. It’s been real. appreciate man, I think it’s a couple hours, almost. but, Bruce, please take us out. All right, churchgoers, thank you guys so much.

01:43:48:01 – 01:44:03:18

Producers, we appreciate you, as always. We’re so excited to see you guys on the next week’s episode of Shirt show print House with podcast. I’m Bruce from from Tavel signing off campus, seeing Mister Gilligan and Andy Redman. Bye, guys. Hi, guys.

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